Transcript
[0:00] You eat meat. Uh, like you're not
[0:02] allowed in. Now I was eating meat,
[0:04] drinking many things, smoking many
[0:06] things.
[0:06] >> Are we denying people access by saying
[0:09] you can't come if you have done this,
[0:11] that, and the other?
[0:12] >> If we know it's wrong, they know it's
[0:15] wrong, and we completely go, "Ah, Paul,
[0:17] just come anyway." They would go to the
[0:19] pub, have a few pints, and come back
[0:20] just in time for the pictures. Standard
[0:22] protocol.
[0:23] >> Guilt says, "Oh, I've done something I
[0:25] probably shouldn't have done." Shame
[0:26] says, "I'm a bad person. I'm not worthy
[0:29] of being here. And there's [music] a big
[0:31] difference.
[0:31] >> I may not have consumed KFC, but I might
[0:34] have consumed pride. I might have
[0:36] consumed envy.
[0:38] >> If you are impure, you qualify for
[0:40] bakti.
[0:41] >> I don't know. I think we might have to
[0:43] tell [music] you might have to put this
[0:44] as down as a radical changes his mind
[0:46] moment.
[0:48] [singing]
[0:51] [music]
[0:52] >> Hello and welcome to for soul's sake. We
[0:54] are here to try and serve you in a way
[0:56] that gives you an entertaining angle on
[0:59] bakti. An accessible, relevant way to
[1:01] answer some of life's deepest questions.
[1:04] A way in which you can find a path in
[1:06] this life towards a life less ordinary.
[1:09] Uh with me again is N and Stina. So
[1:11] grateful for their friendship and for
[1:13] their camaraderie on this podcast. And
[1:15] today we are hitting a topic which is
[1:18] going to get really really interesting
[1:20] because I think it's going to relate to
[1:21] many of you who either are experiencing
[1:24] this or have a friend that's
[1:25] experiencing this. But before we get
[1:27] into it, hit that like and subscribe
[1:29] button. It will share this conversation
[1:31] very far and wide just by simple acts of
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[1:40] right now. Our topic today is the meat
[1:43] eater in the temple. To give you some
[1:46] context, um our producer Sunonny and
[1:50] Vira collectively were telling us how
[1:52] they have a friend who refused to come
[1:55] to the temple because they had eaten
[1:57] meat that day. They consumed some um
[2:02] uh foods that they felt weren't going to
[2:06] qualify them to go to the temple. Should
[2:08] they still go?
[2:10] That's maybe an opening question. And
[2:12] two, um, is it the same with all things
[2:15] that we consume? Like what about someone
[2:16] that drinks alcohol? Can they still come
[2:18] to the temple then? So, I'm going to
[2:20] turn to Stina on this one as our
[2:22] resident. Are you vegan?
[2:24] >> Yeah.
[2:24] >> Our resident vegan. Um, and I know Stina
[2:29] has got a lot of love for life, animals,
[2:33] and is very to give to also disclaim. We
[2:36] We are all vegetarian, and we're not
[2:38] really so fond of meat eating. Can Can I
[2:41] put it that way?
[2:42] >> I think that's fair to say.
[2:43] >> Yeah. I'm not going to promote
[2:44] [laughter] it. I'm not going to promote
[2:46] someone to go down Molly's and get three
[2:48] piece chicken and chips. Like,
[2:49] [laughter] that's that's not really on
[2:51] my uh that's not really on my agenda at
[2:53] least.
[2:54] >> She's a meat [laughter] eater. We're not
[2:56] We're not trying to get some chicken
[2:57] lips up in here. Yeah. All right. Cool.
[2:59] So, we're going to hand over to Stina.
[3:00] What are your thoughts? Can they come to
[3:02] the temple? Yes or no? If not, why? If
[3:05] yes, why?
[3:06] >> So, I think first of all, I probably
[3:09] come at this from a slightly different
[3:11] angle than the two of you because I
[3:13] didn't grow up with Indian parents.
[3:15] >> All right.
[3:15] >> And so, I didn't grow up with any
[3:17] traditions around coming to the temple
[3:20] clean. And this is all these all things
[3:24] that I have learned. Yeah,
[3:25] >> since the community
[3:30] I maybe
[3:32] don't shoot me anybody, but my view
[3:35] would probably be come to the temple
[3:38] anyway because it's better to show up
[3:40] imperfect than to not show up at all. If
[3:44] however
[3:46] you continue to eat meat every single
[3:48] day and continue just to go to the
[3:50] temple and you're not trying at least to
[3:53] progress or to change your ways to maybe
[3:58] show up in a better way to the divine.
[4:02] Yeah. Then maybe you should start
[4:03] considering whether or not you should be
[4:07] sort of coming to the temple. But I
[4:11] think I'm always a fan of this. You can
[4:15] show up even if you're not perfect.
[4:19] >> That's interesting.
[4:20] >> I agree.
[4:21] >> You agree? Yeah.
[4:22] >> Yeah. I remember when I was at Well,
[4:24] when I was at university and we used to
[4:26] go to the spiritual event every Thursday
[4:28] evening. This is when I was getting into
[4:30] sort of bakti philosophy, wanting to
[4:31] understand some stuff. And I was eating
[4:34] meat,
[4:35] uh, drinking many things, smoking many
[4:38] things, right? And
[4:41] um many things one one Thursday I had a
[4:44] I I went to Burger King and I had like
[4:46] one of those double whoppers.
[4:49] >> That's [laughter] what it's called,
[4:50] right? Double Whopper. Something like
[4:51] that.
[4:51] >> He's pretending like he doesn't know me.
[4:53] >> No, it was Whopper something. It's been
[4:54] a long time.
[4:55] >> Double Whopper cheese.
[4:56] >> Double Whopper. Extra cheese, extra
[4:58] bacon, the whole the whole shebang. And
[5:00] then I used to go to those events. I
[5:03] just love it cuz it was like absolutely
[5:04] blowing my mind. Just access to a whole
[5:06] new philosophy, whole new way of life.
[5:08] It was really challenging my mind and my
[5:09] thinking. And afterwards, I'll go back
[5:11] to my flat and engage in some extra
[5:15] recreational activities. [laughter]
[5:17] Now,
[5:19] that was just a standard Thursday, you
[5:21] know, that was the that was the thing.
[5:23] But the thing is, if I went to those
[5:25] events and someone kind of vetted me and
[5:28] said, "Oh, so what's your standards?"
[5:31] Like, you know, how pure are you? You
[5:33] eat meat. Uh, yeah.
[5:35] >> Like, you're not allowed in. I would
[5:37] have felt so
[5:39] uh disheartened, unencouraged and turned
[5:43] off at the whole idea of spirituality.
[5:45] >> Is this really the hearts and
[5:47] hospitality of the spiritual people?
[5:50] >> But no one ever actually so interesting.
[5:52] No one ever told me to stop doing
[5:54] anything. That's the re that that won me
[5:57] over actually. No one told me to stop
[5:59] doing anything. People just told me to
[6:01] start doing stuff
[6:02] >> which were progressive active spiritual
[6:04] things. And then my unconsciousness kind
[6:06] of got corrected along the way and I
[6:07] started to desire purity to start to
[6:10] desire a pure life. So I think it's
[6:12] interesting right like I think Sina you
[6:14] mentioned like if someone comes with the
[6:16] right intention and they want to explore
[6:18] then then fantastic
[6:19] >> and of course along the way if you
[6:21] really want to unlock the magic then hey
[6:23] there's a few lifestyle adjustments you
[6:25] got to make
[6:26] >> right
[6:27] >> I don't know guys
[6:29] >> go on radica
[6:32] >> I somehow feel that there should be a
[6:34] known standard for holy places
[6:38] >> okay
[6:40] [snorts]
[6:40] >> I think if if it was a halfway house and
[6:42] it was like a an event that was known
[6:45] for being a bit of an introducer, a bit
[6:48] of a welcoming, get to know Baki and
[6:51] devotional stuff, then I think it's fair
[6:55] game. You can come as you are, you know,
[6:56] cuz there's no expectation of you
[6:59] respecting a sec a sacred place.
[7:03] When it comes to a Buddhist monastery,
[7:07] would I have a double Whopper before
[7:09] going inside knowing that their main
[7:10] principle is a himsa?
[7:12] Probably not. And I think that it takes
[7:15] a conscious person. Okay. If if you're
[7:17] ignorant and you don't know, I don't
[7:18] think there's a problem there. But if
[7:20] you're conscious and you know that the
[7:22] temple is a place where living entities
[7:26] such as the cow are respected and
[7:28] woripped
[7:30] and I think that goes for most people in
[7:32] the nationality of Indian.
[7:36] I think you should avoid it. I think you
[7:38] should know that that's not the place
[7:40] where you should come straight after
[7:42] eating any sort of animal or uh having
[7:46] had any had any like substances. If you
[7:49] if you've had a drink, don't come to the
[7:50] temple.
[7:52] >> I think where the time, place, and
[7:54] circumstance element plays in is if you
[7:56] were bringing in a colleague from work
[7:57] and it was they didn't have any pre um
[8:01] prerequisite knowledge of that place.
[8:03] Cool. I I can appreciate that. But if
[8:05] it's someone that is from your family
[8:07] and you've just had seen them eating
[8:10] chicken McNuggets,
[8:12] then maybe say, "Look, I think we should
[8:13] avoid maybe let's not go to the temple,
[8:15] but maybe we can read some Gita at
[8:16] home." you know, do something like do
[8:19] something spiritual with that person.
[8:20] So, I think it's very situational. I
[8:22] don't think it's as black and white as
[8:24] saying everyone's welcome at any time,
[8:26] at any place. But if the person is of
[8:29] some cultural knowledge, then yeah, I
[8:32] think we shouldn't. Yeah, we should be a
[8:34] little careful there cuz you know, we we
[8:35] also get the karma there.
[8:38] >> Wouldn't you say?
[8:39] >> We get the karma.
[8:40] >> Yeah. Of bringing that person cuz if we
[8:42] know it's wrong, they know it's wrong
[8:45] and we completely go, "Ah, it's cool.
[8:47] just come anyway.
[8:53] >> It's it's a question of like you said
[8:55] you mentioned these halfway house spaces
[8:58] Yeah. versus
[8:59] >> the very traditional
[9:02] um temple space and they they they have
[9:05] their own you know nuances and purposes
[9:07] etc.
[9:09] Um I remember a funny story that next to
[9:12] Bakanta Mana in Watford just on the
[9:15] entrance road there's a big McDonald's
[9:19] >> and I know a lot of people used to come
[9:21] to the temple cuz it's nice you area
[9:24] parks sit down play with kids they would
[9:27] get a happy meal [laughter]
[9:30] from from the from McDonald's roll up to
[9:34] the temple and just have a picnic with
[9:36] the kids [laughter]
[9:37] and I It's like and these were like you
[9:41] know not ignorant people these were
[9:43] people
[9:44] >> they know they know
[9:44] >> and and I was always used to witness the
[9:46] situation and be like
[9:48] >> what went through your mind in making
[9:50] that decision [laughter] like what what
[9:54] went through your mind to think that
[9:57] today we're going to go to the temple
[9:59] but we're going to get a Big Mac and
[10:02] have a picnic with the [laughter] kids
[10:04] on the outside the temple.
[10:07] >> [laughter]
[10:10] >> I couldn't quite get my head around the
[10:12] logic there. And this is this is people
[10:15] very very aware of of temple standards.
[10:20] They're not alien to this. If it was
[10:21] someone who didn't understand, I totally
[10:23] get it, right? It's a nice pick to have
[10:25] a jolly.
[10:25] >> This is the point that I'm making. This
[10:27] is the point I'm making that if you
[10:29] know, then avoid it. But if it's like if
[10:32] it's someone that's completely new to
[10:33] the culture, then we tolerate because
[10:36] that's they don't know.
[10:37] >> Of course. Of course.
[10:38] >> Yeah.
[10:39] >> But but are we not being are we not
[10:41] being as compassionate as we should be?
[10:43] Like we should like why why shouldn't
[10:46] someone
[10:47] >> come to the beautiful place like the
[10:49] temple, right? Like like there was a
[10:52] there was a wedding at the temple once
[10:54] when I was living in the ashram and my
[10:57] family came. was some of my family
[10:58] marrying someone else. And the tradition
[11:00] in my family has always been at weddings
[11:04] is that it traditionally wasn't at a
[11:06] temple, just in a school hall or
[11:07] something.
[11:08] >> Whilst the wedding was going on, which
[11:10] would take for hours,
[11:11] >> all the guys used to get so bored cuz
[11:14] they were so uninvested in like this
[11:16] beautiful couple getting married.
[11:17] >> I've been there.
[11:17] >> They would all find the pub.
[11:18] >> Yeah.
[11:19] >> And then they would go to the pub, have
[11:21] a few pints, and come back just in time
[11:22] for the pictures.
[11:24] >> Standard protocol.
[11:25] >> Very standard. standard protocol in my
[11:26] family, right? And then I remember my
[11:28] mom, she used to be like so angry at my
[11:30] dad. She'd be like, "Where are you?
[11:31] Where are you? I'm at the pub. Like the
[11:33] photos are now like get here like you're
[11:35] so disrespectful, etc., etc." So one
[11:38] time there was a wedding at the mana
[11:41] >> and a few of my uncles from my family as
[11:44] they did they went to the pub down the
[11:45] road in Rattlet and then they came back
[11:47] at the end but they they stood in the
[11:50] car park and one of my uncles came to me
[11:51] and I didn't realize that they had gone
[11:53] to the pub
[11:55] and I said to my uncle I really want to
[11:56] show you around the George Harrison
[11:58] garden it's really beautiful like let me
[11:59] take you around and he's like no no I
[12:02] was like [laughter]
[12:04] I was like why are you so scared It's
[12:06] George House and Gardens. It's
[12:08] beautiful. I want to I've been living
[12:09] here. Like, let me show you around.
[12:10] >> You were a monk at that time.
[12:11] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[12:11] >> I missed that part of the story.
[12:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. And because I've been living
[12:14] there, so I hadn't seen them in ages,
[12:16] right? And he's like, "No, no." And I
[12:18] was like, "Why not?" He goes, "Uncle's
[12:20] been a bit cheeky." [laughter] I was
[12:22] like, "What do you mean?" I go, "We've
[12:24] been down the pub." I was like, "Oh, but
[12:26] you could see in him." He was like, "No,
[12:27] no, I cannot step foot further than this
[12:30] car park because it's going to
[12:32] >> it's going to, you know, I'm going to
[12:33] create impurities in this space." But I
[12:36] was kind of seeing it as like
[12:37] >> you can't stain Krishna.
[12:39] >> That's also true.
[12:41] >> I actually for me I think this whole
[12:44] topic and to the point of your uncle I
[12:46] think this whole topic is actually about
[12:47] shame
[12:48] >> and I don't know if you're familiar with
[12:50] Bnee Brown but she's a social researcher
[12:52] and she talks a lot about this
[12:54] difference between guilt and shame.
[12:57] Whereas guilt says oh I've done
[12:59] something I probably shouldn't have
[13:00] done. Shame says I'm a bad person. I'm
[13:03] not worthy of being here. And there's a
[13:06] big difference. And I think
[13:07] >> to your uncle's point, it's like he felt
[13:09] unworthy of going to these beautiful
[13:11] gardens suddenly.
[13:13] >> And I think coming coming back to my
[13:15] first point,
[13:17] >> I don't know like I get it. Don't
[13:19] deliberately go and do something that is
[13:21] offensive to the divine obviously
[13:23] >> or the community. Yeah.
[13:24] >> Or the community
[13:26] people around you.
[13:28] However, on the other hand,
[13:31] >> are we denying people access
[13:35] by saying you can't come if you have
[13:37] done this, that, and the other. And so I
[13:41] again I can compare it to recovery
[13:42] circles where if somebody turns up drunk
[13:45] to an AA meeting, they don't get sh
[13:47] turned away at the door because the idea
[13:50] is that even if you're drunk, you're
[13:52] still going to be listening to the
[13:53] stories of other people that are very
[13:54] inspiring and encouraging. And so you're
[13:57] still actually taking steps towards
[14:00] sobriety.
[14:01] >> Yeah.
[14:02] >> I don't know. I just kind of I try and
[14:03] see I mean I'm trying to understand what
[14:05] you're saying but also I see it a
[14:06] different way which is that so like an
[14:08] alcoholic and an AA recovery group. I
[14:11] think that makes sense because they're
[14:12] coming for the it's like a materialist
[14:14] coming to the spiritual place.
[14:16] >> But like if the AA person came not drunk
[14:20] but came with uh you know like a
[14:23] different consciousness like almost like
[14:26] u they wanted to come and deliberately
[14:29] you know harm someone or make a point of
[14:31] it then I think it's it's not that I
[14:33] want to exclude them. I just want them
[14:35] to be at least know that this is the
[14:38] only way I can think of putting it is um
[14:41] when I saw people at the temple and you
[14:43] know I cleaned the grounds after a
[14:46] festival so you see all sorts of stuff.
[14:48] Forgive me but I'm going to say I saw a
[14:50] used condom on temple grounds. I've seen
[14:54] uh weed in the in the reception area.
[14:56] Someone's left a packet of weed just
[14:58] there. So all right clean that up.
[15:00] >> It's all happening at the temple.
[15:02] >> It's all happening [laughter] man. And
[15:04] of course it's like I'm not out to shame
[15:05] and guilt people, but I think it's
[15:06] there's also there should be a standard
[15:08] of where um people should be a little
[15:11] bit more just like respectful. I think
[15:14] what the word I'm looking for is not to
[15:16] shame and guilt trip people, but to just
[15:19] remind them that it's it's a place of
[15:21] worship.
[15:22] >> And um like I I think that person who's
[15:25] drunk who turns up, they may not be able
[15:27] to help it, but I think people who eat,
[15:29] you can choose what you eat. I think
[15:31] it's not necessarily an addiction as far
[15:33] as I'm concerned or turning up, you
[15:36] know, um, yeah, under the influence. I
[15:39] don't know if that is really, you know,
[15:41] what we should know. We should know
[15:43] that's not a place I come to the temple
[15:45] for, if that makes sense.
[15:47] >> But I think there's also a difference
[15:49] between somebody saying, "I'm going to
[15:51] eat meat and go to the temple to create
[15:53] havoc
[15:53] >> consciousness." Yeah.
[15:54] >> Consciously.
[15:55] >> Yeah.
[15:56] >> But somebody might have accidentally had
[15:58] a bit of chicken in their sandwich at
[15:59] lunch. Yeah.
[16:00] >> And then in the evening go, I really
[16:02] want to go to the temple.
[16:04] >> And that's a very different
[16:06] time, please circumstance.
[16:08] >> It's a bit like that thing that happened
[16:10] um at at the the temple in Soho.
[16:13] >> Yeah.
[16:13] >> That the the guy walked in
[16:16] >> uh munching a beef burger in the
[16:18] vegetarian restaurant.
[16:20] >> Yeah. I think it was like chicken
[16:21] nuggets or whatever.
[16:21] >> Chicken nuggets or something. Yeah.
[16:22] Whatever it was. And
[16:24] >> but he deliberately went in filming it
[16:25] for social media to provoke the stuff.
[16:28] >> This is what I mean. But what was
[16:29] actually very beautiful about that for
[16:31] me was that nobody reacted. Every just
[16:34] everybody was just responded calmly and
[16:36] with kindness
[16:38] >> and eventually he was sort of asked to
[16:39] leave but there was nobody was like
[16:41] shouting get out or there was no it was
[16:43] actually I think they was being so
[16:46] tolerant and loving towards this young
[16:48] kid.
[16:48] >> Yeah. reaction. From a reaction point of
[16:50] view, I totally agree with you. Like,
[16:52] don't shame. Don't like when I see
[16:54] people smoking, for example, at the
[16:55] temple, I just kindly got to and say,
[16:57] um, this is a non-smoking place. I
[16:59] really appreciate people put this and
[17:01] 99% of people would just straight away
[17:02] put it out cuz either they know and they
[17:05] just grateful someone told them or
[17:07] they're being told and they've realized,
[17:08] okay, this is not a place for that. So I
[17:10] I definitely agree with you in terms I
[17:12] just think maybe
[17:14] um if you're watching this and you know
[17:16] something's not conducive to the
[17:18] particular space or environment maybe
[17:20] avoid doing those particular activities
[17:22] before
[17:23] >> I I I really love like um the example of
[17:27] praapad
[17:28] >> so the way he dealt with some of his
[17:31] early disciples remember he was dealing
[17:33] with like uh ultra ultra hiddenistic
[17:36] hippies right
[17:37] >> LSD tripping out everything. It was just
[17:40] the name of the game. And so there's one
[17:42] story um his name was Jay Anand. Jayand
[17:45] he was he used to make the Rafa carts
[17:48] for for Praabad.
[17:49] >> And under Jayand's hat I think it was
[17:53] him. Might get the story wrong but under
[17:55] his hat he used to have a packet of a
[17:57] camel cigarettes
[17:59] and he was making the wrath cut and
[18:01] obviously having a here and there
[18:02] just to keep them going. And then
[18:05] praapad found out somehow and he spoke
[18:07] to him and he and the advice he gave him
[18:10] remember this guy is making these wrath
[18:12] carts which is the chariots of god to go
[18:15] through the streets of San Francisco or
[18:16] wherever it was and praapad said to him
[18:20] um why don't you just try smoke one less
[18:22] a day
[18:24] >> just one less cigarette a day and then
[18:26] praad said something really striking to
[18:27] him so first of all the observation is
[18:29] that praad didn't smash him scream at
[18:32] him it just gave gave him a really
[18:34] practical solution.
[18:35] >> It didn't shame him.
[18:36] >> It didn't shame him. Didn't shame him.
[18:38] >> And then Praad said something so
[18:39] striking and he said he got one of the
[18:43] cigarettes and he said, "Are you going
[18:45] to let this get in the way of you and
[18:48] Krishna?
[18:49] >> This little cigarette, are you going to
[18:51] let it get in the way of you and
[18:52] Krishna?"
[18:53] >> That statement is really powerful for me
[18:55] because
[18:57] >> Praapad gave him enough taste of Krishna
[18:59] first
[19:00] >> to then show him the magnitude of
[19:02] Krishna experience. Yeah.
[19:04] >> And your little camel cigarette
[19:06] >> attraction. And that's why I think this
[19:08] with this whole shame thing if we give
[19:11] they understand the magnitude of this
[19:12] pleasure that all the other things in
[19:15] retrospect any conscious person will be
[19:17] like actually this is nothing compared
[19:18] to what I'm actually getting here.
[19:20] >> I love this approach. It's like it's so
[19:22] often psychologically he was so aware
[19:26] Sria Praabad of
[19:28] >> of how to deal with situations like this
[19:30] and Breny Brown's research centers
[19:32] around this that if we shame people it
[19:35] leads to isolation to hiding to
[19:37] pretending whereas actually that's not
[19:39] what he did.
[19:40] >> Instead he just brought it out into the
[19:42] open
[19:43] >> accepted it was loving and said but
[19:46] actually do you really want that to be
[19:48] the barrier this little stick? I mean, I
[19:50] love that.
[19:51] >> I love the challenge in that as well.
[19:53] It's like you really want this to get in
[19:55] the way of you and Krishna. It's almost
[19:57] like challenging, you know,
[19:58] >> and it's also just making it as
[20:00] ridiculous as a cigarette actually is,
[20:02] >> right?
[20:04] >> It's focusing on the spiritual direction
[20:06] rather than focusing on the sin or the
[20:10] >> Exactly.
[20:11] >> Yeah. It's focus on going this way, you
[20:14] know? So, I like that approach.
[20:16] >> Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, I'm not
[20:17] trying to I hope my tone didn't come off
[20:19] as shaming, but more a case of trying to
[20:23] set some boundaries in place. I think
[20:24] it's healthy that um not anything can go
[20:28] on anywhere.
[20:29] >> But yeah, I think there's also a
[20:30] difference between having standards and
[20:32] saying this is what we're working
[20:33] towards,
[20:34] >> right? That's valid.
[20:36] >> But then not expecting people to turn up
[20:38] already perfect. It's a bit like with
[20:39] children.
[20:40] >> We don't expect children to behave like
[20:42] adults or if we do, we're probably quite
[20:43] a bad parent. But
[20:45] >> yeah,
[20:45] >> like that you allow you make allowances
[20:47] for children to have a tantrum and to
[20:49] express themselves in ways that an adult
[20:51] wouldn't because they're learning.
[20:52] >> Yeah,
[20:53] >> it's too uh situational. I think in in
[20:57] the situation that our producer put
[20:58] forward, I think I need to know the
[21:00] person.
[21:00] >> I need to know their background. I need
[21:02] to know how much they know already.
[21:04] >> I need to know like where where their
[21:07] level of knowledge is at. you know even
[21:09] just what will what tone will be able to
[21:12] permeate that person's awareness because
[21:14] you speak to different people completely
[21:15] differently and um you can't speak in a
[21:18] uniform I don't think the the solution
[21:20] is outside the temple gates have this
[21:22] this and this as a rule for entering but
[21:24] I think um as almost like custodians of
[21:28] bakti in one senses or aspiring to be
[21:31] people who share this awareness um I
[21:34] think there has to be a level of
[21:36] explaining things on on the level at
[21:37] which people are that and and not just
[21:40] saying anything is you know
[21:43] >> yeah you know just like no we do have
[21:44] some standards we do have some
[21:46] principles by which we live by and
[21:48] according to that person you can explain
[21:50] it accordingly you can weave it and and
[21:52] that's the art of um I guess the most uh
[21:57] valuable uh sharer of acti is knowing
[22:00] how to frame something based on the
[22:02] person so yeah producer I hope that
[22:05] helps and I hope it helps I hope this
[22:07] conversation is helping you if it is
[22:08] drop us a comment below on what you
[22:10] think and and give us some ideas on uh
[22:13] what where you think we should set some
[22:15] standards or how we deal with people
[22:16] based on this particular
[22:17] >> topic. Choose Krishna not KFC.
[22:21] [laughter]
[22:22] >> This is like t-shirt central up in here.
[22:24] Start making t-shirts. I think we've got
[22:26] a Gita verse. Did you want to share
[22:28] something?
[22:28] >> No. Uh let's go to the Gita verse.
[22:30] >> Okay, let's go to the Gita verse. All
[22:33] right. So the translation for the verse
[22:36] 9:30,
[22:38] even if one commits the most abominable
[22:41] action, if they're engaged in devotional
[22:45] service, they're to be considered
[22:46] saintly because they are properly
[22:49] situated in their determination.
[22:53] One commits the most abominable action
[22:56] to forget about KFC.
[22:59] >> Yeah, I think devotional service. That's
[23:01] the caveat. Yeah, this is one of the
[23:03] most potent I think powerful verses in
[23:06] the Gita because I think it quite
[23:08] >> nicely encapsul encapsulates the
[23:10] qualifications to practice bakti
[23:13] >> and the power of bakti over your
[23:15] apparent disqualifications as well
[23:17] because it's saying bakti is not
[23:20] >> bakti doesn't stop in the way of your
[23:21] impurities um just do bakti and it's
[23:25] supersedes and will help you recover
[23:26] from all those things I think from like
[23:28] if we look at the history of
[23:30] >> bakti like let's go back to 500 years
[23:32] ago to Caitana and Nitananda
[23:36] they their whole premise was that if you
[23:40] are impure you qualify for bakti
[23:43] >> if you're impure you qualify
[23:45] >> if you if you're impure then I'm going
[23:47] to give you bakti you are my target
[23:49] audience because I want to give those
[23:51] who are the most disqualified the
[23:53] highest of spiritual experiences
[23:55] >> and so from from that angle I always
[23:57] think how would they have dealt with
[23:59] this person how would they have dealt
[24:01] with Someone who feels shame, feels
[24:03] guilt. Actually, Nitanandanda was
[24:06] extremely merciful. He was
[24:08] >> against people who are being violent to
[24:10] him, who were, you know, committed so
[24:12] much adultery, so many sins, so many
[24:15] sort of illegal activities, which it's
[24:18] too graphic to mention.
[24:20] >> He even gave them a chance and said
[24:22] >> they deserve the mercy. Just correct
[24:24] yourself now. So I think that's a very
[24:27] extreme example but we probably
[24:28] experience it uh in a very micro scale.
[24:31] >> This conversation has been quite
[24:33] purifying for me because I think I'm
[24:34] about to recount what I've just said in
[24:35] the whole episode.
[24:37] >> You know why? Because it says here if
[24:39] they're engaged in devotional service
[24:41] they're to be considered saintly because
[24:42] they're engaged properly in their
[24:44] situation. They're deter they're
[24:45] situated properly in their
[24:46] determination. One of the nine processes
[24:48] of devotional service is badam which
[24:50] means essentially to go on pilgrimage.
[24:53] Going to a temple is going on
[24:55] pilgrimage. And if someone makes a
[24:57] decision to go on pilgrimage, they
[24:58] should be accepted. Because even if they
[25:00] commit the most abominable action,
[25:04] if they're performing a devotional
[25:06] service, which is to go and worship
[25:07] Krishna on the altar, to worship him by
[25:10] giving the cows something to eat by
[25:13] going and honoring Prasad, that's
[25:15] devotional service.
[25:18] I don't know. I think we might have to
[25:20] tell might have to put this as down as
[25:22] Radikica changes his mind moment. I
[25:25] think we should accept anyone. I think
[25:26] we should accept anyone as they are
[25:29] >> because they're coming to perform
[25:31] devotional service
[25:33] >> from my so from my personal experience
[25:36] this verse really speaks to me as well.
[25:38] I started on a spiritual path through
[25:41] yoga asa and I didn't go to yoga asa
[25:44] classes for a spiritual reason. I just
[25:46] went to yoga asa because it was
[25:48] exercise.
[25:49] >> Mhm. And then slowly I started listening
[25:51] to what the teachers were saying about a
[25:53] himsa
[25:55] all the other principles. And then
[25:57] slowly it entered my heart.
[25:59] >> And as I progressed on this more and
[26:02] more and I guess as my heart opened up
[26:05] to the world around me and to the divine
[26:07] and to the way that everything is so
[26:09] connected, I actually became unable to
[26:12] eat meat because of the harm that that I
[26:15] associated with it. And actually,
[26:18] interestingly, when I first stopped
[26:20] eating meat, I didn't stop eating meat
[26:22] because I thought it was wrong to eat
[26:23] animals. I stopped eating meat because I
[26:25] didn't like how we treated the animals
[26:26] that we were eating. So then I figured,
[26:28] okay, the the biggest sort of influence
[26:30] I can have here is to just not eat the
[26:33] animals because then I'm not like
[26:34] contributing to their suffering where of
[26:36] course that now not of course, but it
[26:37] has changed me now. So now I don't need
[26:39] meat because I don't think that we
[26:40] should be eating other living entities
[26:43] >> or cause harm at all in any way, shape
[26:46] or form.
[26:47] >> Yeah.
[26:47] >> Um and and so this verse really speaks
[26:51] to me because if I had been told when I
[26:55] started going to yoga asa actually you
[26:57] can't come to yoga asa classes because
[26:58] you had a a beef burger for for dinner
[27:01] last night.
[27:03] >> Like I wouldn't be here right now
[27:05] sitting speaking into a microphone.
[27:07] >> Yeah. And
[27:09] and then I do get yes we do need to have
[27:12] some standards and we need to uphold a
[27:15] certain standard to purify places and
[27:18] but at the same time we can still do
[27:21] that even if one soul enters not
[27:24] purified and then it's like the
[27:25] sandalwood that we can be a sandalwood
[27:28] that makes the everything sort of we
[27:30] affect positively those that come into
[27:33] proximity of us with us.
[27:36] >> Yeah. I mean, even if I just think about
[27:37] like my attempted devotional service, I
[27:41] really try to be tolerant of when
[27:44] someone comes in a way that does not
[27:46] agree with my personal standards.
[27:48] >> Yeah.
[27:49] >> Like I really try to be accepting,
[27:51] really try to be compassionate. And um I
[27:55] think the the only reason why I think I
[27:58] would deny someone from the community is
[28:01] if they were destructive and if they're
[28:02] hurting other people,
[28:04] >> if they were being offensive on purpose,
[28:07] >> I think otherwise I think yeah, I'm
[28:08] going to I'm going to recount people.
[28:10] I'm going to turn my my decision in the
[28:13] other direction. Come as you are. You're
[28:15] all welcome. [laughter]
[28:16] Har Krishna.
[28:18] We've got a Leela here for you as well.
[28:20] We we I'm really enjoying these stories
[28:22] that we add into our
[28:24] >> I love the Lelos.
[28:25] >> Yeah, me too. I feel like they really
[28:27] exemplify how our baki scriptures are so
[28:30] relevant and they may speak from an
[28:33] ancient time
[28:35] >> but that they're still speaking to now.
[28:39] So this leela is called the hunter
[28:41] Mgari. Am I saying that right?
[28:44] >> Yeah.
[28:44] >> Mari or migrari. How I've heard it said
[28:47] many different ways.
[28:48] >> I've always said it mari. Regari. Okay,
[28:50] cool. So, this is the hunter Mgari.
[28:54] Not just a hunter.
[28:57] He would deliberately leave animals half
[28:59] dead because he enjoyed watching them
[29:02] suffer.
[29:05] >> Would he be allowed?
[29:05] >> Dan, that's an opening line right there.
[29:07] >> Yeah, I know. Deliberately
[29:08] >> ban him. [laughter] Shame him.
[29:13] >> Banned. Uh, deliberately left animals
[29:16] half dead because he enjoyed watching
[29:17] them suffer.
[29:19] He was living completely against dharma.
[29:22] And then the celestial being Naredamuni,
[29:25] he appears.
[29:27] And notice in this moment what Naramuni
[29:29] doesn't do. He doesn't begin by
[29:31] condemning him. He begins with
[29:34] compassion. And Naramuni asks Mgari a
[29:38] question. He awakens his conscience. He
[29:41] gives him something higher. And the
[29:43] hunter gradually changes. Not overnight.
[29:47] His profession changes. His habits do
[29:50] change. His heart does change. And
[29:52] eventually becomes so compassionate that
[29:55] he carefully avoids stepping on ants.
[29:59] From a hunter to not even stepping on
[30:01] ants. That's exactly our theme, I think.
[30:04] And um I think we have to just accept
[30:06] that transformation isn't instant. It's
[30:09] it's slow. It's gradual. And
[30:13] uh you know, it's like someone who's
[30:17] dirty
[30:18] and if they've gone into the shower, you
[30:20] can't tell them off.
[30:22] >> Can't be like, "Come on, man. Like, what
[30:23] are you doing? You're so dirty."
[30:24] >> Shout at the man in the shower.
[30:26] >> Shout at the man in the shower.
[30:28] >> You can't shout at the uh you know,
[30:31] >> the person the person at A&E who's
[30:34] waiting to see a doctor.
[30:35] >> Yeah.
[30:35] >> Why are you sick?
[30:36] >> Why are you sick?
[30:37] >> Yeah.
[30:37] >> So stupid. [laughter]
[30:40] They're already in the hospital. Yeah. I
[30:42] think that's where we land on this.
[30:44] Would anything else further to share?
[30:46] Maybe a hot take. Give us a hot take to
[30:49] end our conversation today.
[30:52] I just think when approaching any
[30:53] spiritual space um what is your
[30:56] intention and what is your determination
[30:59] uh to be there? I think if you use that
[31:02] as your
[31:04] little criteria and a bit of a bit of
[31:07] selfch check then I think you'll be
[31:08] safe. Um
[31:11] >> because you can uh you can't
[31:16] taint Krishna
[31:18] >> but you can offend him.
[31:21] >> So I think that's always a dynamic you
[31:24] have to be open to.
[31:26] >> Yeah.
[31:28] Stina,
[31:32] >> maybe it's just a nobody arrives already
[31:35] purified.
[31:42] >> I think for me it would be
[31:46] be hard on yourself, be compassionate
[31:49] with others.
[31:50] So try to live by a higher standard. I
[31:53] may not have consumed KFC
[31:56] but I might have consumed pride.
[32:00] I might have consumed envy.
[32:02] I might have consumed
[32:05] uh
[32:07] yeah something that that doesn't
[32:09] facilitate
[32:11] pleasing Krishna. So be hard on myself
[32:13] on it. Be compassionate with others
[32:16] whether they have or haven't. meet them
[32:18] where they're at and see them as uh
[32:22] another flower in the garland that
[32:24] adorns the neck of my lord.
[32:28] >> Nice. Har Krishna.
[32:32] >> Thank you for sticking around. We've got
[32:34] some bonus content for you now. A little
[32:36] fun game that's going to involve us
[32:37] again picking something out of a bowl. I
[32:39] wonder what it will be. Is it a
[32:41] question? What is it actually? Do we
[32:42] know?
[32:43] >> It is a question.
[32:43] >> It is a question. All right, here we go.
[32:45] Hot questions. Don't always hot takes
[32:47] some hot questions.
[32:51] >> A devotional rule or standard you used
[32:53] to be super fanatical about but have
[32:56] since softened on. [laughter]
[32:58] >> This is the most unfatical person I
[33:00] know.
[33:00] >> Yeah, I was just about to say.
[33:02] >> No, there must be something
[33:05] that you were religious about. religious
[33:07] about
[33:08] >> I don't know that there is one thing
[33:11] though that has changed for me is that
[33:14] when I first came into bacti and maybe
[33:16] came to the temple and I always had this
[33:18] assumption that everybody else was
[33:20] perfect and purified and I probably had
[33:22] a lot of feelings of shame around not
[33:25] feeling that I was worthy of being there
[33:27] or not sort of pure enough or clean
[33:29] enough and so I think if anything maybe
[33:32] and then you know as you started to get
[33:34] to know people I was like you drink
[33:35] alcohol alcohol [laughter] and you don't
[33:38] and you sort of you realize that
[33:39] actually we are all just on a journey
[33:41] and doing our best and
[33:43] >> yeah so I think
[33:46] maybe
[33:48] yeah just
[33:51] maybe maybe I was a little bit less um
[33:55] sort of willing to see the imperfections
[33:57] of others and now I can be more loving
[34:01] towards none of us being perfect
[34:05] >> whereas I think I had on that inner work
[34:06] myself, but I just looked at everybody
[34:08] else going, "Oh, you've got it all
[34:09] together." And you're obviously all like
[34:11] because you're wearing all these clothes
[34:13] and got these bead bags and it sort of
[34:16] felt like everybody was just very very
[34:18] spiritual and
[34:19] >> enlightened around me.
[34:21] >> She became cynical basically.
[34:22] >> Yeah, [laughter] I guess so.
[34:25] >> Yeah.
[34:26] >> No, I'm joking. I get it. I get what
[34:27] you're saying.
[34:28] >> Yeah, I think maybe. I don't know that
[34:31] you've said it before. or you feel like
[34:33] Krishna got a good version of me because
[34:35] I'd already been on a spiritual path for
[34:37] many many years and I had already got
[34:39] sober. I was already vegetarian. I was
[34:41] already so I think I don't think I sort
[34:44] of went into this and became super
[34:45] fanatical because I think often what
[34:46] happens is we become fanatical when we
[34:49] are actually so scared of slipping
[34:51] >> when when our practices haven't
[34:54] >> like made roots yet.
[34:56] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[34:56] >> So then it's all a bit wobbly and then
[34:58] we almost it's not mature and then we
[35:00] almost have to become fanatical because
[35:01] we actually so scared of slipping and
[35:03] you see it in recovery circles too that
[35:05] in the beginning people can be very very
[35:08] sort of anti-drink and would never go to
[35:10] a place where there's alcohol around or
[35:12] and then as you progress on that journey
[35:14] is like now I'm 8 n years in and I'm I
[35:17] couldn't care less if people drink
[35:18] around me. Um, I choose not to have it
[35:21] around because of the energy of it. But
[35:22] that's more of a spiritual sort of point
[35:24] of view, not because I'm scared I'm
[35:25] going to drink.
[35:26] >> Makes sense.
[35:27] >> Yeah.
[35:29] >> Nice.
[35:30] >> Don't know if that really answered it.
[35:31] >> I did. There's like two pieces of paper
[35:33] tape in here. One dramatic.
[35:37] >> This is the one. All right. Are we
[35:38] ready, peeps? [clears throat and cough]
[35:41] The spiritual book that completely
[35:43] changed your life. Yeah, I know that
[35:46] one. Uh at the age of 17 or 18, I came
[35:50] across a book called Coming Back. It's
[35:53] got the cover as a old man walking in
[35:57] through a door and a young child, young
[36:00] baby, toddler crawling through another
[36:02] door. It's it's two doors and one is um
[36:06] uh the end of life which signifies um
[36:09] the elderly departing and then new life
[36:12] coming from that same soul. uh
[36:14] essentially inferring that life is
[36:16] eternal
[36:18] and uh when I received that book I
[36:20] actually read it in one night I stayed
[36:22] up all night at you know teenagers don't
[36:25] really read but I was captivated by this
[36:27] literature and most of all I was
[36:28] captivated by the writing style of
[36:31] bakiva to swami praupad very direct very
[36:34] to the point very cutting through the
[36:36] noise and uh I felt like I'd just been
[36:40] disillusioned in uh in it's a very small
[36:45] book so a few hundred pages I'd been
[36:48] completely shifted in my consciousness I
[36:51] remember as a child actually um N and I
[36:54] would you know with sevenyear-old kids
[36:56] we would talk spiritual subject matters
[36:58] and I always felt that there was more to
[37:00] life I always felt that there was
[37:01] something a little bit more to this
[37:03] human experience and uh this book
[37:05] answered it in a nutshell that we're
[37:07] eternal beings uh searching for our way
[37:10] towards uh a loving connection
[37:14] And uh yeah, I mean it almost brings me
[37:17] goosebumps just thinking about reading
[37:18] that book because um you know there's
[37:22] moments in every spiritual
[37:23] practitioner's life that completely
[37:25] shift the trajectory of where you're
[37:27] going
[37:28] and I'd say uh Shila Praad's books did
[37:31] that for me. It completely I think my
[37:33] life would have gone in a completely
[37:34] different direction had it not been for
[37:36] him. I don't think I'd be married to who
[37:38] I'm married to. I don't think I have
[37:40] kids the way I'm having kids right now.
[37:42] A lot of how my life is set up has been
[37:45] from that one pivotal shift towards this
[37:47] direction. So thank you Shilapra. Thank
[37:50] you for that wonderful book.
[37:52] Over to you my friend. Nice.
[37:59] Okay.
[38:01] Let's open this up. Oh man. What is your
[38:05] go-to verse when you're stressed?
[38:10] What is your go-to verse when you're
[38:12] stressed? Um,
[38:15] this would be from Bhagavagita
[38:19] chapter 2
[38:21] and it begins with the Sanskrit matasa
[38:27] and the verse essentially translates to
[38:30] that happiness and distress in this
[38:32] world is like the winter and summer
[38:33] seasons.
[38:36] Um
[38:37] and it essentially flickers. It's
[38:39] temporary and a wise person can cross
[38:41] beyond this reality.
[38:44] Um that's just paraphrasing the
[38:45] translation there. So for me it's a
[38:48] verse that screams to me and says um
[38:51] this too shall pass.
[38:52] >> A very famous statement.
[38:54] >> Beautiful.
[38:54] >> Both in the good times and in the
[38:56] negative times. So when I'm feeling
[38:57] stressed out work, life may be
[39:03] just a fluctuation of time. It's just
[39:05] like the seasons which will come, which
[39:07] will go, there will always be something
[39:09] different. And I think that also keeps
[39:10] me humble in the good times. Um they say
[39:13] that when we get happy and when we get
[39:15] stressed, um it's both an increase in
[39:18] the same hormone
[39:19] >> actually.
[39:21] >> So um and I'm reading a book at the
[39:23] moment called uh Dopamine Nation.
[39:27] Unbelievable book. Yeah.
[39:29] >> Like I'm a quarter of the way through.
[39:31] Absolutely. Mhm.
[39:32] >> Just just blowing my mind. And it's
[39:35] about someone talking about um it's a
[39:37] therapist and psychologist and talking
[39:38] about their clients interactions about
[39:40] addiction and the science of it.
[39:42] >> And when she was talking about this
[39:44] whole receiving dopamine, there's these
[39:47] gremlins on the other side pulling you
[39:49] down, waiting to pull you down.
[39:50] >> Wow.
[39:51] >> And that just very much matched up to
[39:52] this verse that it's just the winter and
[39:54] the summer seasons. The opposites, the
[39:57] ying and the yang are always in play and
[39:59] they're always fighting for dominance.
[40:01] So yeah, I think that's one of my most
[40:03] favorite practical uh go-to verses.
[40:06] Thank you all so much for watching this
[40:07] episode of a soul sake. I hope it
[40:09] helped. You saw me turn and change in
[40:12] direction from being a banner to a lover
[40:16] and a compassionate person. And uh I
[40:18] think that's it's healthy. It's healthy
[40:20] to acknowledge that we don't have views
[40:21] that are always stone cold. No, it's
[40:23] human. And I think it's healthy to be
[40:25] able to be like that. And I'm ready to
[40:27] wear my error as a badge. I'm not a
[40:30] perfect person. Thank you so much for
[40:32] watching. I hope you enjoyed this
[40:33] conversation. If you did, hit that like
[40:35] button. Hit that subscribe button. Share
[40:36] this conversation with a friend.
[40:38] >> Share it with a friend that is going to
[40:40] the temple and eating McDonald's before
[40:42] they come.
[40:44] Maybe [laughter] don't. But either way,
[40:46] thank you so much for being here. I'm so
[40:48] grateful. See you on the next episode of
[40:50] For Sake. [music]